Strange News Stories

Wednesday, June 10th, 2009

Nurses become Doctors

Take A Simple Test and Become Doctor from Nurse. To Treat People or to Kill?

Don’t look now but there are so called Doctor of Nursing Programs (DNP) popping up like marijuana bushes in the California countryside. These programs are available now in 34 states and DC and are growing faster than mushrooms in moist shade. There were 53 open in 2007 and now are up to 93 with plans to get to 200 by 2015. What are they you ask?

It is a certificate program started by nurses and based on the third test of the National Board of Medical Examiners. This is the test a young doctor in training takes around internship time. It is one of the prerequisites for state licensing. A doctor must pass parts one, two and three to get a license and finish his training program. It is a certificate showing that a basic degree of knowledge was attained during the training program (medical school and internship).

The problem is that physicians see this as another attempt by nursing to obtain more certification by simple testing. If a nurse passes the same written exam, they argue they should be paid the same as a doctor. And they call themselves Doctor. Confused yet? The argument is lacking in the fact that the training of a nurse is far less in degree that of a physician in medicine or surgery. Passing a written exam is no indication that one has the experience to use a knife in the operating room or can diagnose diseases as an internist. I can know by reading what lupus mask is. Will I recognize it when I see it though? There is a significant difference in a doctor and a nurse in medical knowledge, education and diagnostic skills. The nursing programs are trying to obscure his fact by calling their programs residencies and fellowships.

We acknowledge that we have nurse practitioners who practice pediatrics and adult medicine and in other areas as well. They have limited prescription rights as well defined by state laws. They all practice under the guidance of a licensed physician. They are not physicians and the DNP will confuse matters more. Physicians support the advancement of nurse education under the physician led team concept. However, there are significant differences in training that cannot be minimized. Testing does not eliminate those differences.

A physician undergoes four years of medical school after obtaining a four year college degree. There are specific courses required for admission to medical school like organic chemistry and so on. After medical school, one undergoes brutal training as an intern and resident in your specialty. Eighty hour work weeks with 24 hour on call periods every other to every third day are the usual training schedule.

Sorry to say, an exam does not get you into the club.

19 Responses to “Nurses become Doctors”

Donna Says:

How about LPN’s taking a test to become a RN? we do as much as they do. The difference being LPN’s cannot hang blood products….i know some very qualified LPN’s that cannot afford to return to school that should be able to sit for RN boards…some even more qualified than what is out there now.

c Says:

Now I see why there is no author listed with this piece. It would be comparable to wearing a big sign on your head that says “Look at me….I’m an idiot”.
DNP is just a PhD in Nursing. NOT quite the same as an MD. Anyone with 35-62% of a brain would know this, and the rest of us realize that we’ve just wasted several minutes of our lives reading something completely useless. I also realize that I have wasted yet another few precious moments commenting. However, I would like to clarify that I have an objective viewpoint on this article as at this very moment I am seated on the crapper, producing what is equivalant to this story.

Mattie Says:

Enough is enough! I have been a patient in several different states and each time I go to a hospital or to a doctor’s office, the knowledge and care is lacking from all areas. RN’s are passing most work of to LPN’s and they just wing it…Doctor’s are givng all sorts of responsibility to Physican assistants and RN’s in order to see more patients. It is a money thing. When nurses ( years ago ) demanded higher salaries and got it- the field went crazy with inadequate students getting into schools and actually passing tests. Occassionally one will run into a compentent nurse where the patient feels secure but it is infrequent. Today most nurses are poorly groomed, have bad attitudes and do not really see it as a calling but a job. I could write a book about the subject of inferior nurses and doctors.

Mattie Says:

True!

DEL Says:

How about a test so that doctors
could become R.N.
Some doctors need to know as much as some of our good R.N.!

W.H Beal Says:

The point of education being different in terms of required classes ,(Organic chem) is invalid at best. Many of the prerequisites are the same and the level of competition for a spot in a DNP program affords for a larger scope experience then that of a first year Med student. A required amount of acute clinical experience is required before acceptance as well as a BSN. While most of the candidates are holding Master degrees in nursing focused on (APRN) family primary care, psych-mental health, nurse anesthesia, public health. The purpose of the programs is to provide practice focused education to enhance the scope practice already employed within the nursing advanced practitioners.

The Doctor of Nursing Practice degree adds depth in biomedical science, cross-site comprehensive care, practice management, information technology, advanced legal and ethical principles, sophisticated practice-based evidence and epidemiology . Though each program may differ in academic structure, they all have strict guidelines for curriculums that must be met to qualify for licensing. Further research on the stated exam process would also enlighten the writer of the article in presenting the facts. The USMLE step 3 exam is not the certifying exam for DNP. Though a initial group of candidates did take the exam with higher then expected pass rates, this is not the current standard for accreditation or licensing.
In order to distinguish DNP graduates who have achieved a high level of competence in comprehensive care, CACC and the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) have agreed to offer a certification examination that will validate the advanced clinical competency of these graduates.

The purpose of this exam is to test DNP graduates’ medical knowledge and understanding of clinical science considered essential for the sophisticated practice of comprehensive care, with emphasis on patient management in ambulatory care settings. This provides evidence of the competence necessary to assume independent responsibility for providing comprehensive care to patients. DNP competencies developed by CACC (2003 and 2006) and published by the American Association of Colleges of Nursing (2006) are covered in this exam.

Transforming health care delivery recognizes the critical need for clinicians to design, evaluate, and continuously improve the context within which care is delivered. The core function of health care is to provide the best possible clinical care to individuals, families and communities. The context within which care is delivered exerts a major impact on the kinds of care that are provided and on the satisfaction and productivity of individual clinicians. Nurses prepared at the doctoral level with a blend of clinical, organizational, economic and leadership skills are most likely to be able to critique nursing and other clinical scientific findings and design programs of care delivery that are locally acceptable, economically feasible, and which significantly impact health care outcomes.

Rhia Says:

Wow. You’re really uneducated on this. A DNP is a practical degree conferred after university level education and clinical practice. It is an advanced practice degree that is on parr with a Ph. D only it focuses on clinical practice rather than research.

Nurses aren’t just passing a test and then claiming to be a doctor of MEDICINE. DNPs would be listed as something like this: Betsy Nursealot RN, BRN, CCRN, DNP. Not Dr. Betsy Nursealot, MD.

This is a bunch of BS. Clearly you’re in the “physician lead” team camp. As if 4-5 years of undergrad and then another 4 of specialty doesn’t allow a nurse to get a doctorate… In Nursing? DNP is simply a clinical degree that specializes more than the Ph. D. If you prefer, nurses can still get a Ph. D in Nursing.

Leave the DNP degree out of it. Nurses should be able to get a doctorate in their field if they so choose. Doing so does not in any way minimize or challenge a MD (unless of course, MDs are really that worried about nurses somehow taking over their own practices?).

Jeff Says:

Not a bad idea, however it would be wise to allow them to write prescriptions in certain situations, but not all. In NY there are D.O.’s that are like doctors, go to 4 yr colleges after their BA’s and can open a practice as a doctor. They are given all the privileges that a doctor has. They can see their own patients and write prescriptions. Why not give nurse practitioners some more training and let them do the same.

James Says:

Well how about us paramedics, we have a larger scope of practice than any nurse does and get paid half the money. I work as a flight paramedic on a helicopter in texas with a nurse partner who makes more than me. the kicker is the state requires the paramedic to be there not the nurse. When its time to intubate or do a surgical airway the paramedic does it. talk about unfair.

B.F. Says:

These “Doctorate of Nursing” programs are just that, nursing programs that RN’s with Masters Degrees in nursing can enter to receive thier PhD in nursing. They are NOT medical doctors. Anyone with a PhD can call themself doctor, even if their field of study is not even in medicine!

All nurses are governed by their state Board of Nursing (BON), no matter what degree they hold. Most PhD RN’s are also licensed Nurse Practitioners and they can diagnose and prescribe as dictated by the BON. Nurse Practitioners must work in a collaborative relationship with an MD, not “supervised” as with a PA.

I don’t know who wrote this article, but it is erroneous, poorly researched and obviously meant to be inflammatory.

mike Says:

Having been an LVN, there are many differences and a different mind set for the RN. There is no way ANY LVN should sit for the RN boards without the same training. Go back to school or shut up and do what your RN tells you to!

Linda Says:

I have practiced nursing [as a Registered Nurse] for 21 years now. I have NEVER worked with an LPN who was even semi-competent. Our acute care hospital no longer employs them. Being an LPN is like being “a little pregnant”. Either become a nurse or don’t; I challenge you to become a RN and see how much you DON’T KNOW.

john crowder Says:

There is no shortcut to knowledge.

b Says:

#1. just because a person goes through that so called brutal training does not quantify one to become a competant doctor.

One should proof prior to publishing as there are spelling errors in your text. Not good, when trying to make a point…doctor!!

Also 80 hour work weeks plus 24 hour call went out several years ago…so keep up with the times if you are going to make a statement.

#2. there are certainly great qualified NP’s that can very well practice on the same level as an MD…

however: given they typically know their limits, do not push the envelope…so I am unsure why your nose is out of joint here.

#3. your mentaliy of: taking an exam does not get you into the: “CLUB” is typical of “inferior DOCTOR mentality”.

If you are good and confident why worry, doctor?

W.H Beal Says:

In the end the author objects to the title of Doctor being used by a medical practitioner with a terminal degree. The post offends with ignorance the very ideology that the author would claim to defend. Who is confused ?

No one occupation has ownership of title. This is the very same old and illegitimate argument applied to DO’s. The same title that would be used for a clinical doctorate in, Physical therapy, Occupational therapy, Pharmacy, Dentistry the list goes on and on and don’t forget the Doctors (PhD’s) that would have schooled you to the point of your inferred membership in a club.

For the sake of debate , I put up a few examples of the time and experience invested:

Lets say we have a 20 year old Pre-med grad entering Med school . After 2 years of basic science and 2 years of clinical education they receive the degree of MD. They then “Match” to a specialty and begin the process of learning what is required to perform to the expected scope of practice within that specialty.
I will use family practice for the example for reasons I will explain later. Ok, the tally is 8 years of education to this point and now we begin residency, (Family practice is currently a 3 year process) .
11 years is the total for the process.

For comparison Lets take a 30 something old with a BSN 4 year degree, they have been either working in acute care or family practice for 10 years. They have been considering a Masters for (APRN) or perhaps already have completed one. The apply for a DPN program ,and accepted . The DPN program is another 3 to 5 years of practice based education in a field they have already served for the past 10 years. Hmmm, that’s 17 to 19 years involved with the process.

Another comparison just for fun. Lets take a 40 year old military veteran who served as a combat medic with a 4 year BS in whatever. They go back to school to complete some perquisites required for Medical school, In the process they are encouraged to consider nursing by means of an accelerated BSN program. They complete the program and go to work in a Emergency room.
They have met the required clinical hours acceptance into the DPN program and apply, get accepted and complete the program. Now lets total the yrs, of the described process : lets say 4 to 8 years as a military medic, that included advance trauma training and experience as the single primary provider in combat in situations that would leave most med students and resident MD’s with a deeper understanding of involuntary bowel movement. The word brutal is unearned in the authors reference but eludes to their level of competency under artificial stress.
The 4 year BS degree and 1 to 2 years of Medical school prerequisites (Organic chem and physics w/labs). 1 year of the accelerated BSN program and 3 to 5 years in the DPN program. If we assumed the person matriculated straight into the DPN program with out any accounting of clinical experience we still come to 14 to 16 years of training.

Put down the bong chump and add’em up.

My reference to family practice is implied to draw attention to the lack and growing need of practitioners in that field. With more and more med school grads looking to match in whatever they can make the most money, a primary care deficit caused by perhaps greed has opened the door for opportunity .

Roni Says:

This comment is directed to Mike and Linda. Mike, please, get a little self respect! I don’t know how long you worked as an LVN, but as an experienced LPN, I would NEVER allow myself to be put into a position where I had to “shut up and do what my RN tells me to”! I personally will not accept any position where I am not at least the Charge Nurse. I did not obtain my training and experience just to take orders from someone else!

And Linda……poor, poor Linda. 15 years, and you never worked with ONE competent LPN? Seriously? Could that possibly be because of the position you were in, with your head being so far up your a**??

Want to know the REAL reason that there is such a nursing shortage? It’s nurses like these two, Mike and Linda. Every nurse has heard the phrase “Nurses eat their young”, right? Well, they not only eat their young, but their old, their innocent, their disabled, and anyone else that is not savvy enough to cover her back at ALL times! Most nurses don’t respect one another anymore, and if you dare cross them, it’s FAR, FAR too easy to set each other up!

Let me tell you a quick bit of info. I am a LPN, and I have two sisters who are both RNs. BOTH my sisters laugh about how they “make up” heart rates because they “can’t find” the apical rate….they write down blood pressure numbers, because it’s too much work to really “take all those pressures”, they have NO idea what pretty much ANY lab results mean, neither has EVER inserted anything remotely like an NG tube, reinserted a tracheotomy tube that dislodged, started an IV, or actually performed the compressions and breathing of CPR. I have done ALL those things, and much, much more!

The course for the LPN is shorter, but it is wildly compressed in that time, and a huge number of people who attempt these classes drop out when they realize that it is NOT easy, as they had assumed.

My sisters (whom I love dearly, btw) graduated from a well known and respected University, and yet NEITHER had to take a PHARMACOLOGY class! But I’M the one who is incompetent??
Please. Yes, I have known LPNs who were….not the brightest. And YES, I have known and worked with RNs who also were definitely NOT the brightest either! Many people in the world are book smart, but have no common sense, and no feel for clinical skills whatsoever. Nursing is an art, and no matter what type of nurse you are, you can be excellent at it, or you can be poor at it. Putting an entire group of nurses down and lumping them all together is just plain ignorant.

For the record, in my facility I was the first LPN EVER to be promoted to Unit Manager, responsible for a 40 bed heavy medical care unit, and responsible for supervising all three shifts of staff…….RNs, LPNs, and CNAs. Back when I did hospital nursing, there was a “desk nurse” who was an RN, she called lab results to the doctor, and waited for the resulting orders. NOW, we call the results to doctors, and suggest the treatment we feel is best for our patients….and work with the doctor, because WE know the patients, and we know lab values and treatments, medications, side effects, drug interactions, etc., and we now take an active role in helping to find the best course of care for our patients. I would never, ever again work in an environment where the MD is God, and the RN is the little Archangel…..taking the orders from God and handing them down to the nurses to carry out!

ceil Says:

Dear Ronni,
What state do you live in, I’ve never heard of an LPN being Unit Manager, Federal Regs require that RN’s must circulate in the OR, Management Positions also have Federal Requirements to receive Medicare reimbursement. BS

Secondly, I think all of us in the Health Care Industry have had experiences with someone who has all kind of educational accolades but is clinically a disaster.
Degrees do not equivocate to competence in the clinical area for either nurses or doctors.
My feeling is that we need way more clinical competence and way less book nurses.

Thirdly, I have worked with many competent LPN’s, so the comment about incompetent Lpn’s was probably made by an RN who never puts down her clip board and gets her hands dirty.
Lastly, I can never understand why hospital personnel cannot work together, after we are all there to provide patient care, somehow that always seems to suffer in the face of personality conflicts, department wars etc, and at times these problems in the workplace lower the standard of care and make the environment hostile and more stressful than need be. I agree nurses are not helpful to each other, if they would be maybe nursing could become a respected profession instead of survival of the fittest.

ceil Says:

Well, to be an MD it is a simple matter of passing a test, I’m sorry but you will never convince me that the ability to get an A in organic chemistry is the ultimate precurser for a good doctor.
Medical care requires abilities in interpersonal relationships, puzzle solving, deductive reasoning etc.
I believe that many of the M.D.’s are able to pass the tests make it through all the years of school necessary, because they are compulsive and somewhere along the way it becomes a clinical liability. Yes Virginia they can go through all that education, pass all the tests, and still not have the skills necessary to practice in the clinical area.
Medicine, I believe, is a hands on profession. If your Dr. can’t touch his patients or talk to them, then how can they be a good DR.
We must find a way to make sure that health care workers are clinically competent,and that includes MD,s .

Michele Gibbons Says:

Sorry if this is a little off topic but I was wondering how you come up with ideas on what to write about? It seems like you put a lot of work into this site and I was just wondering how you do it. As a website owner myself I often experience writers block. How do you get past it?

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